It was February 2011. Two lovers committed suicide. Their bodies were retrieved from the fields of Nandigram. They remained unclaimed in a morgue in Tamluk. Two girls who had loved each other… Swapna and Sucheta… Swapna who was the sole breadwinner of her family and Sucheta who was married off against her will. Swapna left a long note, a suicide note. Filmmaker and activist Debalina makes their story public through her film, And the Unclaimed. More stories emerge in the film… a man caught between his desire to change his sex and love for his family; a ‘liberal’ mother who asks her lesbian daughter whether she fancies her own daughter as well; a brother who offers sex to her sister so that she turns ‘straight’ and then the world beyond the film… from flesh fests in Bihar to corridors of power to protests in Delhi… when exactly does one become the ‘other’? A conversation with Debalina.
When did you first realize that you wanted to document this incident through a film?
As a member of Sappho, I accompanied them on the fact finding mission, once the reports of the suicides came. I wanted to take photographs, record the interviews. You will see in the film, as we are going in the car, there are a lot of ambient sounds…songs of Shilajit, playing in the car. Basically, I still didn’t know what exactly I was going to discover. I still didn’t know I would make a film so while editing the film, I wanted to retain those sounds to show the journey. This was February 2011. I interacted with Sucheta’s mother (she hardly spoke) and husband, Bikash and Swapna’s parents. It seemed as if the parents were relieved at their death, the only one who seemed affected was Bikash. The mothers were just like any other mother… they were crying but that sense of relief was palpable. We spoke to them and left. Tekhali Outpost’s sub inspector, Animesh Chakraborty was very helpful. We were sitting at a tea stall, when we heard that the respective families had not claimed Swapna and Sucheta’s bodies. They were left abandoned at a morgue in Tamluk. I broke down when I heard this and that’s when I knew I had to do something. What could be so forbidden that the parents, the neighbours, the society wouldn’t even claim two bodies? This wasn’t a high rise apartment where people did not care about neighbours. This was a close knit village community and the two girls were second cousins. Yet, no one, not even the mothers, told us that the bodies were lying unclaimed as they were speaking to us. And in the photo that I saw at the police station (the one mandatorily taken by the police), Swapna was in jeans but later the photos that came out in the papers, showed Swapna was in salwar! All this is to hide her orientation? And yet, this wasn’t enough! The bodies were left abandoned. This was horrific.
Why did you bring in the other stories to the film?
For the film, I did not want to merely go there, interview people and come back. I wanted to stay and even spoke to Animeshda about this. In Nandigram, you just can’t go and work without the cooperation of the police. But this was February, 2011 and the Bengal elections were in May, 2011. Animeshda told me to wait till the elections got over. The results came out on 13th May but for some reason or the other, my visit kept getting postponed. By the time, I reached Tekhali again, 9 months had lapsed. It did feel like intruding into their space. I have retained those parts in the film as well, questions like will my father suddenly allow me to bring a camera into his private space…but I had no other option. There was no way, we could have come earlier. Anyway, the respective families spoke to me but the villagers turned belligerent. You see that in the film. Before the elections, the Panchayat members told us that they would help us, even allow Sappho to do an awareness programme because such an incident had happened in their village. But after the elections, their attitude completely changed. Also, Nandigram got a new OC. He was like, “Go to Tamluk and do these campaigns. There are many sex workers there!” So, my film was going nowhere…I didn’t have enough footage. That’s when I decided to bring in the other four narratives. I had known these people for years, knew some of their stories and it all added up.
Why do you think the attitude of the Panchayat change?
The first time we went in February, the elections were round the corner. Nandigram was already a hotbed in Bengal politics. So camera, media, NGO… everybody wanted to be on the safe side. Let’s say the right things, appear cooperative, you get what I mean? But once the government had changed, all was same. So now, no need for appearances. The anger was already there. Or else, why wouldn’t they even allow the families to retrieve the two bodies lying unclaimed in the fields? Now, when they saw the camera, the anger again came out in the open. You see, they were setting an example that if you indulge in this sort of a relationship, this can happen to you.
Without Animeshda’s cooperation, I could do nothing. I had even written this in a newspaper article but those lines were chopped off that because I happened to share my name with Debolina Chakraborty, whose political affiliations are different ( president of the Matangini Mahila Samiti who led agitations against the evictions from Nonadanga), I had to face even more difficulties. In fact, the OC even called me to the station. Animeshda told him that one look at me and anybody would know that I am not the other Debolina. She is quite well built (smiles). But the OC did harass me. I had to travel an extra 7-8 kms to make appearances at the station. Later the IB called Sappho and made enquiries. The way the OC looked at us… my editor Abhro calls it “iron rod in your vagina” look. This treatment was probably because the place was Nandigram but the form of harassment could be different in other places. In fact, during the same period, in January, in Boral— where you have the Tripureshwari Mandir— two girls committed suicide. We went to Nandigram and not to Boral.
So a change in government hardly makes a difference…
Do you think party politics makes any difference to the politics of identities? Today if you die abnormally, there will be a lot of politics around your body. That was there in case of Swapna and Sucheta as well. So prior to elections, it was alleged that they were murdered by CPI(M) goons. This happens. Look at what our Chief Minister is saying about rape but even before she said anything, look at what CPI(M) leader, Sushanto Ghosh remarks about her: she reacts the way she does when she sees the colour red because she hasn’t had the fortune to have a mark of red on her forehead. And then the C M says that the rape incidents have been fabricated. So it is not about Congress, Trinamool or CPI (M).
What other obstacles did you face there?
Well… my entire team was quizzed by the IB, what was our background; our educational qualifications etc… and then the police station deputed a man who was with us for the entire shoot, recording our moves with a camera. That was very unnerving. Then the objections of the villagers… you see that in the film. They treated the subject like a disease. I was filming the rice field when someone asked, “Dhaan khet dyakhenni? Ebar kintu obostha kharap kore debo!” (Haven’t you seen a rice field before? Now be prepared for worse conditions!) If I were male, they would probably start hitting me. Ironically, Swapna’s mother was quite friendly (on the second visit) and invited us for lunch and asked her brother-in-law to get coconut water for us. But the moment he saw us, he was furious. Basically even if you want to acknowledge something, society will not let you…. An example has to be set, so that’s the idea of the unclaimed… from Lalmohan-Tudu to Swapna-Sucheta…
But of course the other side of the OC was Animeshda… the way he cooperated with us… I was in the police jeep with him and he asked me how long I had worked with Sappho. He advised me to get married and stop working with them (laughs). Now that was of course an affectionate advice… he wasn’t a dada like Chiranjit (Trinamool leader who recently said that short dresses are bound to excite men)!
Back to your film, the way you explore the idea of suicide…as fantasy, adventure, rebellion, freedom. Didn’t you run the risk of presenting your material too morbidly?
I have faced this question before also but isn’t the incident morbid? What else is? I cannot imagine that I will die and then my loved ones, my parents, siblings, neighbours, friends will leave my body deserted and that’s because of my orientation. Just place yourself in the situation. A French philosopher had said the difference between man and the animal kingdom (as far as we know) is that we perform the last rites of the dead body. But the idea of the unclaimed has always been there…from Antigone to today’s Swapna-Sucheta. Having said that, the other characters in the film are living, they are still fighting their daily battles.
Since we are talking of morbidity, there was this report in Times of India in 2011 that 2 girls committed suicide in Sonarpur after watching Just Another Love Story (Rituparno Ghosh’s first outing as an actor). So I have 2 questions here… firstly do you see this as a very simplistic and irresponsible reportage of a sensitive issue and secondly, you have made a disturbing film yourself… so do you have apprehensions about the kind of reactions your film will generate?
This is the same suicide I was referring to earlier, the one in Boral. It’s under the Sonarpur PS. About your first question, I will show you 2 reports on Swapna-Sucheta’s deaths and you will shudder (one of the reports is accompanied by the photographs of two female models, skimpily dressed and on top of each other and the other one has a photograph of a dead kid) at the level of ignorance, apathy and irresponsibility. About the second question, we have this tendency to shift blame. Just look at what’s happening now. RSS thinks that rape happens in India and not in Bharat and then everyone from the maulvi to Chiranjit thinks that short dresses are the main problem. Even if I were to concede that the couple committed suicide after watching this film, there are many others who have survived as well. The state will blame the Centre and the Centre will show Pakistan! Sometime back, the root cause for all problems was Islam. Now it is Maoism (laughs). Just look at the way the state government talks! There is no development in the country because of Maoists. So the culprits will keep changing. We just need to shake off the responsibility.
But on a different note, atleast the media is admitting that they were lovers. Even sometime back, terms like ‘close friends’ were used… like what happened in Bongaon, Kajli and her “close friend” committed suicide. Some newspapers still report it that way. Atleast the word “lesbian” is being used now. I remember in my childhood, we never knew the word “rape”, it was always “indescribable torture”. Now the term has become so commonplace.
In what kind of a space, do you see And the Unclaimed? As in, in terms of locations, music, the way it is edited…. It does have a feature length feel…
The edit was like in case of fiction…
And the scenes appear quite dramatic at points…
No…not that I shot the film like fiction. What did you find dramatic?
The way the protagonists cry in different locations for instance…
But did you find it staged?
At times, yes…
This often happens in my films but truth is stranger than fiction. I had made a film Mother Courageous, on maternal deaths in UP. In 2004-05, 40000 women died during or after child birth! While I was watching the film with the audience, a Punjabi man said, “Such well written dialogue!” To us, it maybe dialogue but these were the words of the mothers.
In terms of location, I shot in the hills, in the sea because I felt that these tears did not just belong to the city or the village. It was all encompassing but the stories, as you see them unfold, are absolutely as what has happened.
What was the idea behind making the other characters in the film read aloud Swapna’s suicide note?
I did think whether it was ethical to publicise this letter. It was personal. Yet it was a letter that operated on so many levels. I will show it to you. It starts with a heading, Aamar Jeeboni (My Life). At times it speaks to you, then to society, sometimes to the parents, the next moment to the brother…was it a letter or a statement? The format I have used… I have actually made the letter public… making the characters read the letter loudly on buses, trams, cabs, rickshaws… Somewhere I wanted the public to hear Swapna’s thoughts. I did not know Swapna-Sucheta when they were alive… I had no way of knowing them from their families….all I had was the suicide note from the police station. As Swarup (one of the protagonists) says, making the private public is his political stance.
I wanted raw reactions… so made the characters read the letter for the first time in public places and filmed them. In fact, one of my editors told me that I could get print outs and make them read neatly typed copies but I made them read the photocopy of the hand written letter to get gut reactions. I have only used parts of the letter. It’s very long and I want to and I will make a film just about the letter someday.
How did you get hold of the letter?
I saw the letter in the PS. I photographed it and later managed to get hold of a photocopy.
The film operates on many levels… besides Swarup’s struggle, who wants to change his sex, we also hear his wife, his parents who are grappling with his gender identity… How did they agree to talk so openly?
Whenever I meet Swarup, I tell him that I can’t imagine turning the camera towards my family. Salute to him. He and wife don’t live together anymore but she agreed to talk. She is quite street smart actually. Even his daughter spoke. She shares a very loving relationship with Swarup. At one point, she suddenly points towards Swarup and refers to him as his mother and then starts talking. I felt so uncomfortable that I shut the camera. You see, even those behind the camera can become uncomfortable… Just because we have the camera, doesn’t mean that we can use the power in whichever way. Anyway, a documentary filmmaker, who mainly shot in war zones, once said that the family was the greatest war zone and he was yet to shoot there. I quite agree with this… so my respect for Swarup. Even my parents did not come for the screening of And the Unclaimed. My mother had gone to watch More than a Friend. The next day, I was working on my computer and she walked in, “You have worked.” I stood up, pleasantly surprised. And the next moment, “Do some good work now!” (laughs) That’s what, you see. What do you tell society, what’s the subject of your daughter’s film?
There is a lot of vox pop in your films. In More Than a Friend, somebody says that homosexuals should be kept as artefacts in a museum and in And the Unclaimed, the guy says that homosexuals should be flogged or even killed (not raped as a brother does when his sister confesses her orientation to him)…How did you get such alarming and frank admissions?
One thing I have noticed… a person might say all the ‘right’ things when the camera is rolling or say in this case, when you have a recorder but the moment the camera is off, you will realize that he didn’t mean what he said. But you have to appear progressive enough… you have to be politically correct… this happens quite often in case of homosexuality. So I wanted someone who would speak his mind. In case of More Than a Friend, the man who says that homosexuality is spreading like a contagion, is a friend’s brother-in-law, Habuda. He knows me, so he could open up, which is why I did not speak to random people on the street. The guy you see in And the Unclaimed is a Roopkala Kendra pass-out and is a filmmaker now. So you can well imagine what films he will make! He is a quite well known to my crew. So he opened up. At the same time, I have also met people who have said that their outlook has changed over the years. One of my cousins, who is a homemaker told me that she knew nothing about this and was not even net savvy. So how do you take positions when you don’t even know what is it about? But awareness might bring in a change in mindset. I have kept such voices also in my films.
You are very open about your orientation. Didn’t that create a barrier while getting the vox pop?
Some of those you see in the films, like the filmmaker guy, didn’t know about it. Maybe, they would guess something was “abnormal” (laughs). But on a larger note, I have never hidden my orientation nor have I announced it. Do you talk about your sexuality when you meet a person? It’s as basic as that. I have never spoken about it with my best friend but she sees me with my partner… I do feel privileged to know people who don’t make an issue of it.
How do you define your identity as a filmmaker… all female filmmakers have to face the gender question…
If I were really forced to categorise myself, I would call myself an activist filmmaker.
But then again, it isn’t that simple. Remember, the film we watched the other day (Two Women and a Camera). It completely blew me over. I wondered what have I been doing all these years. Reena Mohan edited the film. Her edit was so simple and beautiful, no technical show… I thought should I take And the Unclaimed to a female editor. Will it become a different film then? Nobody asks these questions. The focus is always on the director but an editor’s contribution is so important. I don’t mean just cutters but someone who has technique as well as a grasp over the story and its core. My editor, Abhro has done a fantastic job as well and his role in the film is immense, he has done the sound design, the ending was suggested by him yet I did think about women and the outlook they bring on the table.
Hmm… identity politics is important, isn’t it?
Yes it is… but I can hardly answer in yes and no. Sometime back, a friend and I were watching a film. We had missed the name of the director. Suddenly, both of us simultaneously said the film must have been made by a woman director. The film turned out to be At my Doorstep by Nishtha Jain. Now why did we say this, I don’t know.
What was it about?
It was about the people who come to our house, right from morning and perform all sorts of chores like bringing newspapers and so on. You know… there’s this incident in Hollywood. A lady had gone for an interview for the post of an accountant in a studio. This was in the 70s. There were two doors. The security guy showed her to one door. The moment she entered, she was shocked. There were a host of bikini clad girls. The lady wondered whether accountants had to wear bikinis! The other ladies also looked shocked seeing her. Later it turned out, the interview for accountants was through the other door but the security man did not even think that a woman could come for such a post, so without asking, he led her to the other room. This woman, later, started an organization for women.
Labels might be important at times but ideally I wouldn’t want labels. Why do we say female authors? Then again I will contradict myself and say in my country, isn’t there a difference between the woman who cooks while writing and the man who has the privilege to write in solitude?
Labels will be important because it isn’t an ideal world…
True… but one does aspire towards a time when such labels will not be required. During my college and university days, I was actively involved in politics… all comrades. But the kind of comments that as a female, I had to hear from my firebrand leaders, seniors and comrades… like “You can do a lot of things but if we feel sad at 10o’ clock in the night, we can just go to the cemetery. Can you even think of going there?” So you see…
A lot of feminists say that the common enemy is the patriarchal structure and hence the struggles of dalits, women, minorities converge… Now all of them have their respective histories of oppression. So is bringing them together an oversimplification?
Oversimplification as in?
As in say conflating the struggles of Irom Sharmila, Soni Sori, Swapna-Sucheta, Bilkis Bano and so on…
Hmm… but you have to start the struggle somewhere… you have to find a platform first and then build on it. For instance, Marx hadn’t though much about women and the environment. Perhaps the time hadn’t come to think of environment and he thought at the end of revolution, problems of women wouldn’t exist. Having said that, at the end of the day, when I look at other ideologies, Marxism is where I find solace. As a woman, I have my complaints, yes. Now if I am a lesbian, then imagine a Maoist lesbian! I will be flogged by one and all. Where do I feature then? (laughs)
Just look at me. I am not only a filmmaker but I also do my own camera, traditionally a man’s bastion. When I started off, working with a channel, you should have seen the attitudes of my male colleagues. One day a heavy camera came and I went to see it. I was told that I couldn’t even touch it. I could be allowed to use it only if I obtained the go ahead from a senior, a man. Till date this man goes around claiming that he taught me how to use the camera just because he wrote me those 3 lines. But having said that, I must also say that I had a cooperative female boss.
I have this friend in New Zealand, Anne. During a conversation, she said one needs to choose one’s battles. So true… Today if all your senses are alert and alive, you will go mad at the systemic injustice all around. Class struggle, environmental degradation, apathy, crime against women, increasing levels of intolerance… But one has to fight in one’s own way. I stated my politics through my film and I do believe the struggles overlap. It’s not just about a few people who wave the rainbow flag. The Delhi incident outrages me but Soni Sori doesn’t. Why? Not that the fact that stones were inserted in her vagina and anus were not reported. Then why the silence? At least we knew about her, what about the women in Kashmir? Under what circumstances, do bodies become unwanted, illegitimate? It could be even throwing Osama’s body mid sea… These questions are important… this politics of otherisation. Swapna-Sucheta’s story cannot be studied in isolation. It has a broader canvas.
So much is being said and written about the Delhi incident. How do you define rape?
Pauses
For instance, in your film, family, society and the State are imposing strictures on the characters… trying to force them to operate against their desire… isn’t that rape?
Yes…it is. When you said the word rape, the word that instinctively came to my mind was, intrusion. Doesn’t the camera intrude? When a sex racket is exposed, and the girls are forced to give their names on camera… isn’t that rape? Is rape only the forceful entry of an object?
You know… I have worked more in the villages of Uttar Pradesh than in West Bengal… Gorakhpur, Saharanpur, Muzaffarnagar… I feel blessed that I wasn’t born in an Indian village. In Saharanpur, I was interacting with a group of women and was yet to take out my camera. I found a lady sitting very quietly. She was 65, had marks all over her face. Later I found that due to water disputes, all her family members including women, had fled. Only she had remained behind. Her neighbour’s sons, who she had brought up, raped her brutally. Then at a hospital in Muzaffarnagar, I met this 16-17 year old Hindu girl who had fled with a Muslim. The boy’s family raped her. A riot like situation had been created. I have seen such incidents and so it is very difficult to give a neat answer to your question.
Here there is power politics at play as well…not just sex…
Yes but some say that just as a man is hit, is injured…a woman is raped. But then are the two same? There are so many factors actually…People are talking about class because of the Delhi incident. Nobody is talking about Pallabi Purakayastha’s rape and murder in Mumbai. There the security guard saw her everyday… So class could be a factor but can it be the only factor? Aren’t those driving BMWs not raping? Many years back, there were girls raped in moving cars around the Indian Parliament! There were no item numbers back then (smiles). Personally, I have decided I will not watch a woman being made a chaat to be had with alcohol, in songs. But I cannot impose my thoughts on others. Here again the question of shifting blame comes.
There are many who believe that the working class has failed to make sense of the growth story, of which the independent English speaking woman is a part. They go back, watch item numbers with lyrics like main to tanduri murgi hoon yaar Gatkale saiyan alcohol se … so for them a woman is meat which needs to attacked and brutalized… Then there others like Manu Joseph, who writes that India is still beset by village mentalities…. So class, city v village…
Everybody is blaming everybody else… Look at our scriptures. They say there are eight types of marriages…one is in the Rakshas way (against will). Isn’t that rape? Is rape something new? Just the word is new. And weren’t item numbers there before? What did the Apsaras do wearing those revealing clothes? Look at Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Sita absolutely loved her drink! She used to pass out… So why make such points? Again that point from my film comes, this doesn’t happen here, it happens there mindset.
The newspaper (Telegraph) that reports about Trinamool leaders dancing and throwing notes on girls is also the newspaper that splashes photographs of skimpily dressed models and actresses in its supplement everyday. Why this hypocrisy? Have you ever been to any of these village carnivals? I went to Soanpur once and I could get entry only because it was a government assignment. In the November cold of Bihar, young girls were dancing, half naked. People were bargaining over them. Sometimes nanga naach also goes on. Look at our Bhojpuri songs? How many things do you ban? The point is today if I walk down the street, I am prone to being raped as much by the migrant labourer as by the BMW driving man!
Isn’t it time that we all introspect? Candlelight vigils have become a comfortable zone. In candle light, the photographs look very pretty… yes, on one hand such marches are important because at least through these, you can raise the plight of the Kashmiri girl, or the 13 year old girl from Kerala, whose father, uncle, brothers raped her for 2 years after her mother died. But still there is the question… where were these vigils when the crime against Soni Sori was committed? There are so many girls who are taken into custody because they are suspected Maoists. What happens to them? Why do we not come out for them.
For the individual Pinki Pramanik, the last year has been a turmoil but questions are being raised. Such incidents are happening that are shaking the foundation of the family, society and the state. You have to ask questions, you have to answer… you can’t be like Madan Mitra, (WB health minister) who says, “When the government came, we thought we had to solve land crises, we had to create industry. We didn’t know that we had to put up equipments for sex detection.” You just cannot escape. I know at least a couple of girls who have written on Facebook that they were raped… What kind of an impact do these declarations have on the family? There is a huge churning because of the Delhi incident, which needs to be sustained. Everybody needs to think.
I was reading this article in Savari where a dalit feminist asks her fellow comrades why is it okay to publish images and names of dalit women raped whereas in case of the Delhi incident, we are discreet… while justice, equality are important but these dalit women also live in families, in a society…
Hmm…true. Just see how easily we talk of Soni Sori. You know, this reminds me of Pinki Pramanik. Her medical report was widely publicized in the media whereas during the same time the media was so discreet about Sonia Gandhi’s health. Why?
There are just so many questions and facets, that you can never take definite sides…
Let’s end this chat with your inspirations…
You see that tamarind tree by my house… that’s my biggest inspiration. Most of the big trees in this area have been cut but this one still stands. So many different species of birds find shelter here. My friends tell me, this is the height of pseudo intellect (laughs) but I can actually spend hours just staring at the tree. I can’t just name a Ray, Ghatak or Godard. Inspirations can be so varied. It could be a documentary like Czech Dream or an incident or anything… When Animeshda said that the two bodies were lying unclaimed and I broke down… that made me work on this film.
